By franco
#146869
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I have a little issue with the curve at the bottom of South Schuylkill Ave. down at the bike
path. I have personally seen a trash truck and a school bus which were thrown off this curve because of the negative pitch. I understand there have been other accidents there as well. This problem has existed for a very long time and all the West Norriton politicos do are make lame excuses about their hands being tied due to litigation. They claim to have studied this problem numerous times but keep coming up with the same old lame excuse. PennDot's highway engineering department has plenty to say about safe roadway construction, particularly regarding the grading of curves. I'm quite sure this South Schuylkill Ave. curve would never be approved by state engineers. The guard rails have been pushed out and weakened by the vehicles they have stopped, and my guess is the next truck this curve throws off the road will keep on going until it comes to rest on the bike path. Isn't that a pleasant thought! As many years as this danger has persisted you would think at least one board of supers would have had the courage to say enough is enough, and do what is right for this community. Looks to me like none of them are worth a plugged nickle, either then, or now! All I can do now is, "remember remember , the 5th of November". (as in election day) (from the movie, "V is for Vendetta") This situation helps prove that at least one universal constant is NOT always true, and that is simply, "most government contracts are awarded on the basis of guaranteed kickbacks". Isn't that comforting to know about our do nothing politicos?
Last edited by franco on Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Helmat
#147271
Let it alone.

West Norriton just wants to be liable for accidents that happened because of the way the town left the road.

You have notified them. They know they have a serious problem.
By MT
#156192
Yes we have a serious road deteriation issue in our community. I have to compare the streets of Norristown to third world conditions. How long are we going to sit around and let the politician plunder our money?
By franco
#156436
Apparently Probono's opinion OR his facts were not appreciated by whoever has their finger on the censorship button on this "open forum". Because it was so informative I saved it and am
re-posting it. How long it will last is anyones guess! I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread
were deleted after a few phone calls were made.

Probono's deleted thougts were as follows;
START
I have attended at least one West Norriton Township meeting where this curve was
discussed and is part of the recorded minutes. Nevertheless, to my knowledge nothing meaningful has ever been done. If someone dies or sustains serious injury as a result
of an accident on this curve It is highly unlikely the township could plead ignorance
concerning this matter. As a result, the taxpayer will pay dearly, as he always does.

Any portion of a curve that is not “banked up” on the outside of the curve, meaning that the pavement sloped downward from the center of the road towards the outside of the curve rather than toward the inside of the curve. This condition is referred to as “adverse superelevation.” “Superelevation” is a term used to describe a curve that is banked up on the outside of the curve so that motorists have better traction and grip the pavement better when maneuvering the curve. If a curve has adverse superelevation, the curve tilts downward toward the outside of the curve, thus reducing a motorist's traction and causing the car to be pulled to the outside of the curve by centrifugal force which describes this curve on South Schuylkill Ave.

A public entity may be liable for accidents proximately caused by its failure to provide a signal, sign, marking or device to warn of a dangerous condition which endangers the safe movement of traffic "and which would not be reasonably apparent to, and would not have been anticipated by, a person exercising due care." This "concealed trap" statute applies to accidents proximately caused when, for example, the public entity fails to post signs warning of a sharp or poorly banked curve ahead on its road, a fact known to the public entity but not to unsuspecting motorists.

Good luck, but don't expect much until after the next accident.
STOP

francophile@operamail.com
User avatar
By Helmat
#156445
tHAT'S SHAMEFUL!

It's hard to believe that the webmaster would delete the commentary, since it obviously appears to be correct.

I went golfing at Westover the other day and came around the intersection that is the subject of this thread. If I wasn't really alert to the defective roadway, when I encountered another car coming in the opposite direction, I would have been involved in an accident.

I don't believe that people in public office really understand their liability to do the right thing once they have their legal problems protected by a municipal solicitor. They adopt a Mad Comic attitude...."what me?"

At least put up better signage until you get it repaired, and council should acknowledge that they will rebuild the roadway so that it complys with safety requirements.. Maybe they got away this Winter, but what if there is hot days and then a rainfall.
By dasboat
#310396
This curve has to be the worst I have ever seen and its not getting any better.
Considering the republicans are running things I'm not surprised.
When someone is killed or injured at this curve the material in these messages
will mean a larger than usual court settlement. The idiots in charge will not be
able to plead ignorance. I doubt they will even feel shame.
By JHKolb
#310430
Granted that road may really suck, but that location may not necessarily warrant an actual 'superelevation' to be designed into it.

S. Sch is a local (Twp) road and is likely a posted 25 MPH speed limit. Adding a superelvation would certainly have the negative effect of increasing traffic speed, and given the radius of the curve and possible short sight distances be a bigger negative than to just leave the road as it is today.

Excerpt from PennDOT Publication 70M - Design of Local Roads and Streets:

Chapter 2 - Design Elements and Design Controls Publication 13M (DM-2)

Although superelevation is advantageous for traffic operations, various factors often combine to make its use
impractical in many low-speed urban areas. These factors include wide pavement areas, the need to meet the grade
of adjacent property, surface drainage considerations, the desire to maintain low-speed operation, and frequency of
cross streets, alleys, and driveways. Therefore, horizontal curves on low-speed urban streets are frequently designed
without superelevation, sustaining the force solely with side friction. On these curves for traffic entering a curve to
the left, the normal cross slope is an adverse or negative superelevation, but with flat curves the resultant friction
needed to sustain the lateral force, even given the negative superelevation, is small.

For further guidance on design for low-speed urban streets, refer to the section "Design for Low-Speed Urban
Streets" in the 2004 AASHTO Green Book, Chapter 3, and Exhibits 3-12, 3-16, and 3-17.



There are definitely more roads in the Twp and surrounding area that need more immediate attention with the limited amount of highway money available. I know one street near my home that I drive everyday is horrible, its like one of those suspension test tracks it is so broken and deteriorated. It has been field painted for repair for a year and still not been fixed.

PennDOT Pub 13M
By dasboat
#310441
I drive that curve everyday, you don't. Two trash trucks, a school bus and several cars have been thrown off. Then there
the those cuties in their spandex who think a bicycle commands the roadways. At the very least the negative pitch should be corrected. These assholes don't even have the sense to put up a warning sign. The curve is an absolute danger and I have never heard anyone defend it or those assholes whose responsibility it is to see that dangerous conditions like that are dealt with. You gotta be a --censor-- republican!
By JHKolb
#310454
dasboat wrote:I drive that curve everyday, you don't. Two trash trucks, a school bus and several cars have been thrown off. Then there
the those cuties in their spandex who think a bicycle commands the roadways. At the very least the negative pitch should be corrected. These assholes don't even have the sense to put up a warning sign. The curve is an absolute danger and I have never heard anyone defend it or those assholes whose responsibility it is to see that dangerous conditions like that are dealt with. You gotta be a --censor-- republican!


LOL - I am most defiantly NOT a Republicant. I'm not defending a road that may be dangerous, I'm defending my taxpayer money.

That road does get used alot, the VW/Volvo dealer (Wynn) take their demo rides back that way and as much as those "cuties" may be in your way, they DO have every right to be on the road, just as you, as long as they also obey all the rules of the road (as I am sure you do). I have driven that road often enough that I know the curve is there and am always aware of the road conditions when I drive (or ride - motorcycle). Can that curve handle a vehicle going 50 mph - no way, 25 mph - absolutely.

Heck, if they rebuilt that road and super'd the curve and used the new PennDOT superpav material that road would be great to ride on then.